Hi all Pokernetters,
Cash Race - $10,000
The Cash Race runs from 1st-15th and 16th-29th guaranteeing a first prize of $1,000. As most of you know, the more you rake the higher you place.
Raked Hand Race – $1,000 guaranteed
The Raked Hand Race runs from 1st-29th February guaranteeing a first prize of $400. The Raked Hand Race rewards you for raking many hands.
Loyalty Program – Half prize on all VIP levels
February gives you another month of half prized VIP levels. Where as you normally need to collect 5000 points to reach VIP Level 6 for example, you now only need 2500 to reach the same level.
Important: The points you earn per $1 raked have been adjusted from 17 to 13 points.
Pokernet Winter Cup – 3rd leg starts on the 29th January
The Pokernet Winter Cup continues... At the time of writing this, theprins1 have a lead in the second leg of the PNWC and the fabulous Pokernet Champ winner (Played in November last year) BalotelliFTW has a grip of the total leaderboard with 440 points.
Markus
RCP - Feb Promos and Loyalty Program
Important: The points you earn per $1 raked have been adjusted from 17 to 13 points.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Altså det er jo umuligt at få et overblik over den value i tilbyder når det hele tiden
bliver ændret. Er det permanent?
Jeg er btw meget positiv omkring RCP, men er sgu lidt pissed over det her, det er ikke
let at have en plan omkring cashback, når det er umuligt at vide hvad der sker i morgen.
Tilbage til 17 ! Og fjern nogle af de andre tiltag.
Kanon arbejde Pokernet, virkeligt en solid Ipoker Deal i har fået arbejdet hjem, til jeres loyale kunder gennem mange år.
Har i overvejet hvor mange % mindre vi spillere får tilbage, det er jo ikke bare 20% vi har mistet, 80% af Pokernets brugere på RCP får jo under 15% Valueback effektivt.
Det virker velovervejet at gennemtænkt at sætte Loyalty Points fra 17-13 det vil helt sikkert medføre en masse mennesker der fravælger Party / Stars, for at blive forkælet med valueback turneringer raked hand races på Ipoker.
Suffer Well skrev:
Important: The points you earn per $1 raked have been adjusted from 17 to 13 points.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Altså det er jo umuligt at få et overblik over den value i tilbyder når det hele tiden
bliver ændret. Er det permanent?
Jeg er btw meget positiv omkring RCP, men er sgu lidt pissed over det her, det er ikke
let at have en plan omkring cashback, når det er umuligt at vide hvad der sker i morgen.
Tilbage til 17 ! Og fjern nogle af de andre tiltag.
Hi Suffer Well,
That a reduction will come was announced early and I have been very open to the discussion for some time.
While some lowered we came with an even greater offer in January and added extra value. To maintain the returns we have offered you up until now is not sustainable under the new regulation and when the government raise the prize by another 25-30% our budget is affected and so the returns to players.
January offered an amazing chance to pick up some additional value but with the tax fee of 20%+ this is nowhere sustainable. It is absolutely impossible to remain at the returns that were offered. If we want to see this product thrive in Denmark and maintain competition we must adjust accordingly. What is not adjusted for now will show very shortly.
Markus
Troels_1 skrev:
Kanon arbejde Pokernet, virkeligt en solid Ipoker Deal i har fået arbejdet hjem, til jeres loyale kunder gennem mange år.
Har i overvejet hvor mange % mindre vi spillere får tilbage, det er jo ikke bare 20% vi har mistet, 80% af Pokernets brugere på RCP får jo under 15% Valueback effektivt.
Det virker velovervejet at gennemtænkt at sætte Loyalty Points fra 17-13 det vil helt sikkert medføre en masse mennesker der fravælger Party / Stars, for at blive forkælet med valueback turneringer raked hand races på Ipoker.
Hello Troels,
The reduction is a must and I have argued this with you before on several occasions.
In terms of what value back one can return I cannot see a healthy environment a year from now where competition can continue and so returns to players be maintained at a healthy level unless adjustments are made. This is what the rough 20% on top of rest have caused and we have discussed this for too long. What you are now suggesting to the community cannot be a healthy solution. Please keep in mind that the boom we have all been surfing on for 10 years now is the result of strong competition and a strong injection of new rooms.
What you are asking for cannot be done. The forfeiture by many brands when the legislation hit explains why reductions have to come. We are here, we have invested our money in this product.
That one wants to protect its value I have full understanding for but please understand that the reduction is coming because its required.
I will make you a promise and assure you that the day the 20% is reduced I will be the first one to throw a promotion for all.
For now this is what can be offered. Im doing my best to return what I can offer but more bonuses I cannot.
Markus
Jeg synes altså det begynder at virke som om i begynder at bruge lovgivningen som undskyldning for at give en mindre value back til jeres trofaste spillere...
I har i forvejen skåret 50% af valueback ved at hæve point fra 500 til 1000
og dette nye tiltag har jeg godt nok ikke lige regnet på men de 4 point giver altså ret meget i den sidste ende i forhold til value back..
Tror i skal overveje tingene.. hvis spillerne kan se en fordel ved at spille et andet sted end hos jer.. så er det lidt at skyde jer selv i foden.. så gør op med jer selv om det ikke godt kan betale sig at give den value back.. kontra at spillerne finder et andet sted at spille.
Gumple skrev:
Jeg synes altså det begynder at virke som om i begynder at bruge lovgivningen som undskyldning for at give en mindre value back til jeres trofaste spillere...
I har i forvejen skåret 50% af valueback ved at hæve point fra 500 til 1000
og dette nye tiltag har jeg godt nok ikke lige regnet på men de 4 point giver altså ret meget i den sidste ende i forhold til value back..
Tror i skal overveje tingene.. hvis spillerne kan se en fordel ved at spille et andet sted end hos jer.. så er det lidt at skyde jer selv i foden.. så gør op med jer selv om det ikke godt kan betale sig at give den value back.. kontra at spillerne finder et andet sted at spille.
Hi Gumple,
Im probably one of those that have spent more hours looking at financial reports and played with the numbers more than anyone connected to this business in Denmark and I can tell you that I have tried to find ways but there are none. Absolutely no way of staying at the level that's been offered in the past. There is none here using the regulation as an excuse and you can probably acquire a breakdown and financial statements to see for yourself that there is no way you can maintain these returns.
I would shoot myself in the foot and the other one too if I did not make an adjustment here.
Im open to any suggestions and Im available day and night to anyone willing to come with a suggestion on how we can maintain the returns offered in 2011 and still do poker in Denmark. There is a great opportunity to support the community here and help in returning more to the players would someone have the solution. We are more than open to discus and look at any suggestions.
If I was given a chance to be more transparent here I would and there will come a time where public numbers will speak for itself. For now I can just say that there isnt any other solution than to lower the bonuses given back.
"I har i forvejen skåret 50% af valueback ved at hæve point fra 500 til 1000"
It would be good if you could elaborate on this one as the prize of a bonus do not in any way define the returns.
Markus
Det er godt nok ikke meget value tilbage efterhånden :(
Når man kommer fra den gamle Betfred deal til Red Club dealen er det jo langt mere end de 20% der skal betales til staten man har mistet i value. Jeg har ikke regnet præcis på tingene endnu men kan sjusse mig frem til at det nærmere har kostet 40-50%. Nu ryger der så ekstra procenter af dealen ved at gå fra 17 til 13 point pr rakes dollar og når der ikke er mere sign up bonus tilbage ryger der endnu mere der.
Det er svært når der ikke må komme rigtige tal på bordet men jeg har godt nok meget svært ved at se at det ikke er spillerne der betaler alle 20% til staten (+ ekstra) og at de smukke tanker om at de 20% til staten skulle deles mellem spillerne, sitet og afiliate er gået fløjten.
Red Club Poker skrev:
To maintain the returns we have offered you up until now is not sustainable under the new regulation and when the government raise the prize by another 25-30% our budget is affected and so the returns to players.
Maybe I'm not reading it right, but are you saying that the Danish government raised to 20% tax by 25-30%, or did you just mean the originally planned tax of 20% of revenue plus the base fee?
Red Club Poker skrev:
It would be good if you could elaborate on this one as the prize of a bonus do not in any way define the returns.
I'm sorry, but that is absolutely not true. What defines the return are the rate with which one accumulates points and the number of points needed to buy a certain bonus. I realise that you adjusted the amount of points awarded to the player and not the price of the bonuses, but you could just as well have raised the price for each bonus and that would have had the same effect. I'm aware that lowering something sounds better than raising a price, but you could have achieved a lower return for the player by adjusting either of the two.
Anyway, good job on notifying your customers well in advance, even if it's bad news. I think maybe Suffer and Troels are forgetting that you said in December that the VIP program might be adjusted, which I suppose everyone took to mean that the return would be lowered. So it shouldn't really come as a surprise for anyone.
The lowering of the value back is also completely in line with what has been said earlier. Pisfisk said that if the new legislation would take 25% to the state, then the value back would be lowered accordingly, which it has been. I took a look the numbers and the value has been lowered almost exactly 25%.
So, for me at least, there's no reason to be angry or surprised by this change. But I'm not playing on Réd Club, so that might have something to do with it.
Edit: Removed not so nice word :)
Kirk skrev:Red Club Poker skrev:
To maintain the returns we have offered you up until now is not sustainable under the new regulation and when the government raise the prize by another 25-30% our budget is affected and so the returns to players.
Maybe I'm not reading it right, but are you saying that the Danish government raised to 20% tax by 25-30%, or did you just mean the originally planned tax of 20% of revenue plus the base fee?
The tax has not been raised. The 25-30% refers to the tax and additional fees. Anyway and just to make it clear only 20% have been considered in my calculations but It is important still to make it very clear that it is not only the 20% on gross earnings.
Red Club Poker skrev:
It would be good if you could elaborate on this one as the prize of a bonus do not in any way define the returns.
I'm sorry, but that is absolutely not true. What defines the return are the rate with which one accumulates points and the number of points needed to buy a certain bonus. I realise that you adjusted the amount of points awarded to the player and not the price of the bonuses, but you could just as well have raised the price for each bonus and that would have had the same effect. I'm aware that lowering something sounds better than raising a price, but you could have achieved a lower return for the player by adjusting either of the two.
Exactly. And I probably should have elaborated a bit more myself here but the number of points required to buy a bonus do not define the returns in a transformation between two programs. Therefore, in isolation, the prize of a bonus do not say whether we did gave a good or bad prize. Details and not important. What I mean is that we have to look at the full structure of a program. I had an earlier discussion with a few just some weeks ago regarding this.
Markus
Edit: I still haven't learnt how to deal with these posts my learning curve seem flat sorry everyone :)
Halabalousa skrev:
Det er godt nok ikke meget value tilbage efterhånden :(
Når man kommer fra den gamle Betfred deal til Red Club dealen er det jo langt mere end de 20% der skal betales til staten man har mistet i value. Jeg har ikke regnet præcis på tingene endnu men kan sjusse mig frem til at det nærmere har kostet 40-50%. Nu ryger der så ekstra procenter af dealen ved at gå fra 17 til 13 point pr rakes dollar og når der ikke er mere sign up bonus tilbage ryger der endnu mere der.
Det er svært når der ikke må komme rigtige tal på bordet men jeg har godt nok meget svært ved at se at det ikke er spillerne der betaler alle 20% til staten (+ ekstra) og at de smukke tanker om at de 20% til staten skulle deles mellem spillerne, sitet og afiliate er gået fløjten.
Hi Halabalousa,
Agree and its a shame we cant have these on the table for your eyes to see but I think you can start by asking around with affiliates to see what the reductions have been if you want to look at it.
Anchoring at Betfred is not the better comparison I must say for anyone willing to investigate what possibilities the rooms have but to lower their prizes. Fact remains that Betfred did withdraw from the market and have as far as Im aware not applied for a license. This for a reason.
The prizes were at their peak. One must also see that the rising prizes is not only problematic now but have been so all along. You see former networks that no longer exist today going down with no control of their expenses. We saw the biggest go down in 2011. The risk of these "Black Swans" have been lowered with the regulation but it comes at a prize and that we have to share. The operators take the biggest risk here while suppliers and governments take what they used to. Not before this gap is closed can we afford to give you more in returns. We at Red Club Poker do not support all that comes with this fast changing environment and it is us, middlemen and players that have to take the hit now when the bill comes. Everyone including myself pays for this bill directly.
Once again, Im willing to share as much I can to anyone aware of the expenses connected to this business and I can assure you all that suggestions will be carefully reviewed.
Markus
Måske skulle i overveje at betale mindre til jeres Affiliates og mere til jeres spillere.
Kan se den Danske licens er på forsiden, så går ud fra de op til 40% til Affiliates også gælder hvis man signer danske spillere op.
www.redclubpartners.com/
Jeg ved ikke meget om det, men udefra kunne det godt se ud som om det var der mange af spillernes "tabte" procenter ender. Og jeg kan godt se at hvis du skal betale 25-40% til Pokernet eller andre affiliates så er der ikke meget tilbage til spillerne.
Troels_1 skrev:
Måske skulle i overveje at betale mindre til jeres Affiliates og mere til jeres spillere.
Kan se den Danske licens er på forsiden, så går ud fra de op til 40% til Affiliates også gælder hvis man signer danske spillere op.
www.redclubpartners.com/
Jeg ved ikke meget om det, men udefra kunne det godt se ud som om det var der mange af spillernes "tabte" procenter ender. Og jeg kan godt se at hvis du skal betale 25-40% til Pokernet eller andre affiliates så er der ikke meget tilbage til spillerne.
Hi Troels,
The site is being updated and most likely within a day or two. It hasn't been changed since 1st January. No affiliate can pick up those numbers in Denmark. :)
Thanks for the heads up.
Markus
WTF fra 17 til 13 er helt klart en dealbreaker, jeg er insta væk hvis det bliver indført og jeg er ellers fast top 5 i PN racet
Rasmus88 skrev:
WTF fra 17 til 13 er helt klart en dealbreaker, jeg er insta væk hvis det bliver indført og jeg er ellers fast top 5 i PN racet
Efter at have tænkt over det i nogle timer nu, må jeg sige at dealbreaker er et godt
ord til at beskrive det med.
Jeg er meget utilfreds, men ønsker ikke at råbe mere end denne ene gang. RCP er nu under den grænse som jeg vil tillade. Alle andre netværks/pokersites kan nu tilbyde mere. RCP er ikke konkurrencedygtige længere med hensyn til cashback.
Jeg har i øvrigt ikke fået nogle mail eller anden form for advarsel om dette, selvom
det bliver antydet, så supporten er heller ikke enestående.
Jeg har regnet ud at hvis jeg raker for ca 35.000$ (det tager 4-6 måneder) Og venter
med at få min cashback ubetalt får jeg knap 30%. Det er helt fint, synes jeg laver
en stor indsats, men har brug for arbejdes ro og er NÆSTEN ligeglad med cashback da
det er min erfaring, at jeg er better off med at bruge krudtet andre steder.
Jeg gider ikke finde regnemaskinen frem igen og kan godt estimere hvor det ender....
Jeg er meget stor fan af loyalitet og tillid når det kommer til valg af site, men døren svinger altså begge veje. ikke godt nok PN/RCP ØV!
Suffer Well skrev:
Jeg har i øvrigt ikke fået nogle mail eller anden form for advarsel om dette, selvom
det bliver antydet, så supporten er heller ikke enestående.
Hi Suffer Well,
We presented this today, you are the first ones to hear about it.
Having said that, I still have a hard time agreeing to this coming as a surprise seeing to all the discussions we have invited to here in the forum. This has been discussed from day 1 and we were clear with January being a promotional month maintaining the returns. Im not claiming a service free from its mistakes but on this discussion Id say we have been in the front.
Markus
Important: The points you earn per $1 raked have been adjusted from 17 to 13 points
www.redclubpoker siger stadig 17 points per 1$ raked. Skal jeg forstå det sådan
at det først er fra 1/2-2012 det bliver 13 pionts per 1$ raked ?
Suffer Well skrev:
Important: The points you earn per $1 raked have been adjusted from 17 to 13 points
www.redclubpoker siger stadig 17 points per 1$ raked. Skal jeg forstå det sådan
at det først er fra 1/2-2012 det bliver 13 pionts per 1$ raked ?
Hi Suffer Well,
That's correct. The thread refers to February promotions.
Markus
For at give mit besyv med - jeg er også top 5 raker og det her gør at jeg tager min business til stars!
jeg må også sige at jeg nok også ryger tilbage til Bet365, som faktisk giver cashback på 50 procent op til 100 dollar hver uge, på deres premium borde (op til nl 100), samt deres vip program svarer til jeres, og faktisk endnu bedre nu med de nye tiltag, med undtagelse når man veksler til hhv 50 og 150 dollar.
raker også normalt for ca $4k om måneden, og når spillet blivere sværere og sværere, har de reguleringer for stor indflydelse på ens overskud på sigt.
det er efterhånden slet ikke nogen konkurrence dygtig deal som flere har været inde på.
vil ellers rigtig gerne støtte om rcp, men føler at det hele tiden, går den forkerte vej, set fra spillerens side.
måske er i bare ikke et stort nok site (endnu) til at kunne konkurrere på ipoker, og er sikker på når flere i poker skins får licens i dk (hvilket må være attraktivt, da der kun er meget få og lidt pokervenlige udbud), så vil deres deals stadig tilbyde markant mere.
Bét365's VIP-program er faktisk ringere end Réd Clubs på næsten alle områder. Jeg gider ikke rigtigt lave Réd Clubs promo-arbejde, men hvis man kigger på vilkårene for deres VIP-program og hvad der ellers bliver tilbudt udover det, så er det ret tydeligt at Réd Club > Bét365 for så godt som alle spillere, undtagen folk der raker så lidt at gevinsten fra det der premiumballade ikke bliver forholdsmæssigt udvandet.
Fun fact snuppet fra Bét365's vilkår for VIP-programmet:
"Alle tilbud fra Bet365 er tiltænkt fritidsspillere, og Bet365 forbeholder sig retten til at begrænse enhver kundes adgang til ethvert tilgængeligt tilbud eller dele af det."
Det er obv standard at pokersites siger at de kan gøre lige hvad fanden de har lyst til, men det så bare lidt sjovt ud at de kan begrunde det med at man ikke er fritidsspiller.
til gengæld har de kørt med cash ladder hvor man kan få op til 1000 dollar i hver peridoe, som typisk vare 27 dage, hvor det svarer til 33 procent cashback, men derudover beholdt man sine pint some stadig kunne veksles, hvor man får meget lignende rcp's vip., og helt op til 45 procent. ulempen er dog at det SKAL være på deres premium borde, som kun består af Bet 365 spillere, (typisk 10 regs som er ved stort set alle borde altid, og så fisk som køber ind for miimum, så selve valuen fra spilelt er nok dårligere.
jeg ved det ikke, det er svært at kalkulere med da begge sider hele tiden ændrer i det, og ikke rigtig lægger noget konkret frem, som man kan holde sig til på sigt, men lige pt er der mest value for mig på Bet 365, ud fra det som jeg spiller.
@Suffer Well
Undskyld men LOL altså.
Du skriver i en anden tråd: "Et eksampel kunne
være de mange indlæg hvor du snakker om hvor skidt alt blev efter D 1/1.
Synes ikke helt det lever op til dommedagsprofetierne, Jeg spiller med næsten
samme RB og med større sikkerhed på alle områder."
Denne ændring fra RCP er jo blot et eksempel på at der rent faktisk var hold i de informationer om mindre value 1/1 som der blev informeret om.
Jeg vil gerne lige understrege, at PokerNet hele tiden arbejder for, at spillerne skal have de bedste deals, bedste support og den bedste service. Vi må dog også acceptere, at pokersiderne bliver nødt til at ændre i deres forretningsplan, når de bliver pålagt en afgift der reelt svarer til +35% af raken.
Red Club Poker har allerede nu valgt at træffe de nødvendige ændringer, så de kan gå fra at tabe penge til at få dækket sine udgifter. Det er en konklusion som de andre sider også vil komme frem til i løbet af Q1. Det skal dog ikke forhindre os i, at kæmpe for hver en % til spillerne.
I stedet for at blive sure og irriteret på pokersiderne, burde vi i langt højere grad rette vores utilfredshed mod politikerne. De har lavet en lovgivning der er tilpasset sportsbetting og casino, og lavet en hovsa løsning for poker.
Når det er sagt, så kunne Red Club Pokers kommunikation godt have været bedre, og de kunne i endnu højere grad have gjort det klart, at der ville ske en nedsættelse for Danske Spillere. Markus har skrevet om det i et par tråde, men det er langt fra sikkert at alle får læst de indlæg.
c_hope
Med hensyn til pokers fremtiden cashback wise er jeg stadig positiv. RCP er blot ikke
med længere.
Her er hele den post du referere til:
C-hope
Jeg har stor respekt for din overall viden omkring poker, lovgivning osv.
Men jeg forstår ikke alle dine indlæg er af negativ karakter, Et eksampel kunne
være de mange indlæg hvor du snakker om hvor skidt alt blev efter D 1/1.
Synes ikke helt det lever op til dommedagsprofetierne, Jeg spiller med næsten
samme RB og med større sikkerhed på alle områder.
Log in og skyd nogle hænder af, så vil du se det hele ikke er så skidt endda.
Gl sir.
Som du kan læse bestrider jeg ikke din indsigt, undre mig blot over du popper frem
hver gang der er noget kedelig nyt. Synes du laver lidt et selvmål ved at gør
det igen.
@Dieb
Når det er sagt, så kunne Red Club Pokers kommunikation godt have været bedre, og de kunne i endnu højere grad have gjort det klart, at der ville ske en nedsættelse for Danske Spillere.<-- Er det kun for Danske Spillere på RCP eller gælder det for alle?
Det er uprofessionelt og useriøst, at et pokersite ændrer vip Program / Indtjening like 3 gange på 3 måneder.
Hvad der er endnu mere useriøst er at kunderne skal søge rundt på et Internet forum for at finde svar på at deres deal er blevet like 15-20% Dårligere. Hvis dette var sket på Party eller Stars med noget der ligner 5 dages varsel, ville det have haft helt horrible konsekvenser.
I Må hive fat i jeres GULD Partner og fortælle dem der er god forretningsskik, at fortælle om den slags ting via e-mail til alle kunder på selve dagen, da denne ændring er så stor og essentiel at det simpelthen er for useriøst kun at poste det her på en tråd der nemt kunne endne på side 3.
Jeg er kunne hos RCP, og har stadig ikke modtaget nogen officiel mail om denne Loyalty program ændring, for mig et et poker forum svar ikke nok.
når de bliver pålagt en afgift der reelt svarer til +35% af raken.
Bob Bob Bob ik? Det er vel ikke staten der pålægger dem 35%, jeg har altid læst det var 20, og nogle årlige / enkelte opstarts omkostninger, men at sige dette er 35% giver jo ikke mening set over 12 måneder, medmindre ens produkt er så dårligt så de 250k til licenssøgning betyder 15% af årlige omk.
@Suffer Well
Jeg går ud med den information jeg har i efteråret, og oplyser hvad det - i mine øjne - vil give af implikationer for fremtiden, herunder desværre massiv nedsættelse af valuen for spillerne. Det er selvfølgelig et negativt budskab, men dont shoot the messenger.
Når nu RCP meddeler dette officielt, ved at oplyse hvilke implikationer det får for deres spiller, får de på hatten for IKKE at kunne planlægge længere frem, og ikke at melde ud i bedre tid.
Ja du har da helt ret i at det er et negativt budskab jeg går ud med, men det er jo præcis fordi jeg har kunnet se, at PN og de tilknyttede sider, har tegnet et for optimistisk billede af fremtiden, og forledt brugerene på denne måde.
Det er naturligvis blevet taget ilde op mange steder, men mon ikke det i bund og grund handler om budskabet, dets indhold og dets kommunikation end så meget andet - Jeg tror det.
Ja jeg skal ikke lægge skjul på at jeg på mange måder IKKE bryder mig om PN's kommunikation, idet man - i mine øjne - på mange måder giver svar, og udmeldinger der i alt for høj grad er farvet af økonomiske interesser, og derved forleder brugerne. Men PN's brugere har brug for sandheden - Det er en ny branche, med mange indbyggede problemer, og der er det vigtigt at PN fremstår med den bedste information til brugerene, i stedet for - i økonomisk interesse - at lede brugere mod løsninger der på sigt ikke er holdbare.
Jeg syntes Pokernet skulle til at hive fat i RCP, og fortælle at når man ændrer sit VIP system eller laver andre store ændringer, bør man sende en mail rundt og informere sine kunder. Evt - Kunne Witten fortælle om der er kommet noget nyt frem omkring Bet365 - Pokernet aftalen
RCP det er ikke nok at lave en Pokernet tråd på side 5 når man ændrer sit Loyalty program.
Jeg er kunde og har stadig ikke modtaget nogen mail eller kan se ændringer på hjemmesiden omkring det. Jeg syntes det er selvmål og kæmpe useriøst, jeg tror at over 50% af jeres kunder slet ikke har læst eller hørt om denne tråd. Det er så dårlig service.
♥
Troels_1 skrev:
Jeg syntes Pokernet skulle til at hive fat i RCP, og fortælle at når man ændrer sit VIP system eller laver andre store ændringer, bør man sende en mail rundt og informere sine kunder. Evt - Kunne Witten fortælle om der er kommet noget nyt frem omkring Bet365 - Pokernet aftalen
RCP det er ikke nok at lave en Pokernet tråd på side 5 når man ændrer sit Loyalty program.
Jeg er kunde og har stadig ikke modtaget nogen mail eller kan se ændringer på hjemmesiden omkring det. Jeg syntes det er selvmål og kæmpe useriøst, jeg tror at over 50% af jeres kunder slet ikke har læst eller hørt om denne tråd. Det er så dårlig service.
♥
Hi Troels,
Bumping a thread on a forum to promote Febraury's promotions is not my job and would probably be seen as inappropriate by both competitors and Pokernet.
I do not intend to send out an email every time a promotion is changed Troels. I provide you with value and have delivered so for some time now and you haven't had one reason to be unsatisfied so far with the promotional schedule we provide, if you are there is a great discrepancy between what one can expect in return and what the earnings of a cardroom is.
We also seem to have reach a point here where no matter what we deliver to you in return, we cannot satisfy you enough unless we as a business decide to take a loss and go down in months from now. I will honor your feedback and take it into consideration but seeing to the extent of your critique and the many complaints, I do no longer know how to rank the extent of your complaint.
We are making website updates now as January is still running. Newsletter for February will come. We by no means tend to leave you in the dark and I must say that some of the discussions we grasp wouldn't even be touched by most cardrooms. Im trying to be transparent here by informing you paying very much attention to these changes.
You also take for granted that everyone supports the above. With the email stats I have here in front of me, very few are even interested in opening emails that concern the Loyalty program. What one segment emphasize on a lot, others don't. Would I send an email every time I changed something I would not have one customer. This change is not something I consider very different to many of the other changes I make with regards to our promotional schedule.
I have screamed about this now and spoke to the ones that it concerns the most. I have also spent hours on explaining to you why this change is needed. I have a hard time seeing how bad of a service that can be. I will keep you in the loop on what the reactions are on my decision here and in the case Im wrong I will make sure to compensate for my mistake. If you want to gather a group in Denmark im more than willing to take my time and come over to explain why we cannot offer you more than we do.
Markus
Still the problem is if the RCP deal is much worse than what danish players can get on other sites the danish players will simply go play there and leave RCP.
Halabalousa skrev:
Still the problem is if the RCP deal is much worse than what danish players can get on other sites the danish players will simply go play there and leave RCP.
Hi Halabalousa,
I have full understanding for that some players will.
The bill for this development on the poker scene will come sooner or later and it will be clearly visible. Once again the stand point one have and what one supports needs to be in line with ones aim with poker and how much one cherish it. With regards to me personally I feel protecting diversity is always important and try to be at least mid term minded in my decisions when it comes to what I produce from Red Clubs side. The returns we have seen now cannot stay forever that's a fact. If one is going to be around putting time in to studying the game there are probably better propositions to take than to scream about more rakeback. Its quite risky business on top today seeing to the coming development with less for the players.
With a longer minded plan for RCP I will have to weigh this in and build for something sustainable so I dont end up like the many operators you are throwing thistles at every day. I also believe its important to the community to decide what one is willing to support and not. Its good to work for better conditions and more saying but it would also be good if you players involved yourself and committed to a plan of what the aim should be over time. Many committed individuals are today very well prize oriented (for a reason obv) and know their true value. What I feel personally though is that the discussions are very centralized around the direct value one is getting back. The result of it is also where the cardrooms place their focus. I would like to hear more about where to spot the sucker than where to spot the value.
Markus
I remember seing a rake analysis for all the major poker networks at some point. It showed that the rake in general on IPoker network was well in the upper half among other networks so when paying such a rake obviously the "rake back" (value back, call it whatever you want) is of high importence.
For example a site like Stars has lower rake i general so playing at Stars you can live with lower "rake back" than you can live with at IPoker so you must understand why it makes a big difference for us when the VIP points we earn per $1 raked gets lowered from 17 to 13.
As long as I still have some signup bonus left I can find value in playing at RCP but when I lose those percentages I dont think that will be the case anylonger.
Dont take this just as negative criticism. I can very well understand that you cant run a company with a red bottom line but "chasing away" your customers doesnt improve the bottom line either. Its all about finding a midway that both parts can be somewhat happy with :)
Halabalousa skrev:
Its all about finding a midway that both parts can be somewhat happy with :)
Hi Halabalousa and thanks,
Very much agree and this is what Im trying to find hence involving me to the extent I am. I also find the Pokernet gang a more aware and switched on community than most other channels so this is some good learning for all of us. Same way I approach the hand analysis threads I do with you so there is a need for me to be challenging to you that involve yourself in the prizing discussion. By no means I mean to be offending in any way.
The lowering of the points is for sure about meeting half way and even better if you were to look at the same sheets as I have here in front of me. Ive been twisting, turning and shaking them for months now and this was the outcome. I don't expect you to take this to you since I cannot provide you with the numbers but as Ive suggested and seeing to how both operators and middlemen have suffered lately I think one can assume that Im not all full of bananas. (In before someone throw that picture at me)
No but once again I understand that some might have a better prize in place but I also know that the consequence of running so how on prize usually comes with a bill sooner or later. What I cant match to you in a few percentages I have to match in something else. I think this will show overtime and I try to be a step ahead here.
I also have to consider more than the top raking 5% in this discussion and make sure to maintain a split view and distribute these earnings proportionally or else there will be no more poker for anyone to play but the Phil Ivey playing himself heads up rail.
Markus
Réd Club,
What I don't understand is why you guys seem to have decided to be the front runners of lowering value for your players. At least Stárs and IPN seem to have kept their VIP/RB-programs at pre-legislation levels, and Stárs even lowered their rake, while you have just cut the VIP-program by 25%.
I can appreciate that you need to run a profitable business, but if that means that you'll have a lesser product than the competition maybe you're doing something wrong?
Why can't you do what Stárs, IPN, and Ongame(in spite of the ridiculous essence model) are doing? All of those three have fishy populations and/or relatively high levels of value for their players. You guys are on track for having neither, unless the iPoker games improve significantly.
Also, a smallish note on the promotions. For a cash game player, albeit a lower-volume one, it seems pointless that you spend what seems to be a relative large amount of money on promotions such as the winter cup and pokernet champs. Attracting fish is great, but what exactly does the participants in those promos add to the network? I played one or two of the PN Champs tourneys and the level of play wasn't retardo-fishy bad, and the amount of liquidity you get from the small contingency of players must be negligible. Yet, you spend what amounts to a quarter of the monthly rake race prices, not counting administrative expenses connected with a bunch of people depositing small amounts of money, and whatever else you need to spend man hours on.
I realize that promos such as those two are in line with what you and PN are trying to do with Réd Club, and maybe the recreational pokernetters are worth more to the ecosystem than I'm aware of, but looking at it from an outsiders point-of-view, the promos for low-volume players seem excessive. I don't know how many players entered the tournaments, but assuming a player is >0EV versus the field, the relative valueback(most importantly the added value) way surpasses that of the VIP-program for most players.
Your last paragraph in post #34 kind of confuses me. Along with IPN, iPoker is(has been?) notorious for sending back incredulous amounts of money back to the high volume players, yet you want to create a fish pond on that same network. That seems counter-intuitive and in my mind it would lead to any customer on Réd Club paying for the high valueback percentages on other iPoker operators.
Lest I forget, I just wanted to commend you for doing a great job communicating with the pokernetters. The communication of changes in the VIP-program might not have been perfect, but compared to other support profiles you are definitely above and beyond.
Kirk skrev:
Réd Club,
What I don't understand is why you guys seem to have decided to be the front runners of lowering value for your players. At least Stárs and IPN seem to have kept their VIP/RB-programs at pre-legislation levels, and Stárs even lowered their rake, while you have just cut the VIP-program by 25%.
I can appreciate that you need to run a profitable business, but if that means that you'll have a lesser product than the competition maybe you're doing something wrong?
Why can't you do what Stárs, IPN, and Ongame(in spite of the ridiculous essence model) are doing? All of those three have fishy populations and/or relatively high levels of value for their players. You guys are on track for having neither, unless the iPoker games improve significantly.
Also, a smallish note on the promotions. For a cash game player, albeit a lower-volume one, it seems pointless that you spend what seems to be a relative large amount of money on promotions such as the winter cup and pokernet champs. Attracting fish is great, but what exactly does the participants in those promos add to the network? I played one or two of the PN Champs tourneys and the level of play wasn't retardo-fishy bad, and the amount of liquidity you get from the small contingency of players must be negligible. Yet, you spend what amounts to a quarter of the monthly rake race prices, not counting administrative expenses connected with a bunch of people depositing small amounts of money, and whatever else you need to spend man hours on.
I realize that promos such as those two are in line with what you and PN are trying to do with Réd Club, and maybe the recreational pokernetters are worth more to the ecosystem than I'm aware of, but looking at it from an outsiders point-of-view, the promos for low-volume players seem excessive. I don't know how many players entered the tournaments, but assuming a player is >0EV versus the field, the relative valueback(most importantly the added value) way surpasses that of the VIP-program for most players.
Your last paragraph in post #34 kind of confuses me. Along with IPN, iPoker is(has been?) notorious for sending back incredulous amounts of money back to the high volume players, yet you want to create a fish pond on that same network. That seems counter-intuitive and in my mind it would lead to any customer on Réd Club paying for the high valueback percentages on other iPoker operators.
Lest I forget, I just wanted to commend you for doing a great job communicating with the pokernetters. The communication of changes in the VIP-program might not have been perfect, but compared to other support profiles you are definitely above and beyond.
Hi Kirk and thanks for the thorough reading,
Why we are front runners has already been explained in the fact that anything else is not possible to do from a P&L standpoint.
I cannot answer for what others do and how their calculations look and I wont go into further speculating as im not supposed to but history talks for itself. No need mentioning any names there are a great deal of examples.
If what you are saying is true re the fishiness in the winter cup and ipoker network then there is definitely a case for building one and being front runners, and this is, if anything, something the pokernetters MUST push for and ensure to protect with all their heart.
I will not agree to the statement in the winter cup not bringing a liquidity pool that is not longed for with the results I have and Im happy for what I have in my hand and will continue to run these until something suggests the opposite. What the player value is comes in Black/white and is looked at continuously. Im positive.
With regards to your last comment on my #34 post I think you can always state that's a fact with one not following the other in a network hence the reason to why we see occurrences such as the essence model to an extent, policy amendments and other cannibalizing preventing means.
If this means that I can focus all of my effort on a cash race? The answer is simply no. If this is the more sustainable and better business model, not at all necessary and not in our case no. You should be very glad for this not being the case.
What you are also leaving out in your calculations is that you are looking at the direct returns and not considering the Winter Cup and similar activities as an investment. I would think there is an unwritten law / agreement, agreed directly or indirectly, between the community and pokernet on investing in the forum and so ensuring the necessities for operating an online forum. I dont think my position would be very good would I not be willing to invest here. This is first of all a forum and to maintain that you require more than just a few high raking players. You have that model aswell but they are what they are and thats the reason we aren't there and instead chill out Pokernet. Forums and communities like Pokernet is if anything the future and something to protect. Poker is just so much more fun with friends. =)
Thanks for the good words Kirk, I appreciate you taking your time to discuss these topics aswell. Needed if anything.
Markus
Hi Markus.
I think it is time to reconsider. Not just you on Red Club, but all of Ipoker and other euro sites as well.
I used to rake a lot on Ipoker, not a top raker but above average, but unfortunately my main games such as full ring SnG's and full ring cashgames are almost non existing on Ipoker nowadays.
I only joined Red Club for the pokernet tours and an occational tour once in a while so don't take this post as one from an angry customer.
I think most people here recognizes that you have to run a business, but the pokerrooms also have to recognize that the serious players will shop for the best prices.
The pokernetworks need to attract new fish, but they also need the big volume players (rakebackpros) to keep the games going, the new players doesn't want to wait 15 mins for the game to start. If you lower the rakeback, these players will soon disappear, which on short term basis is good for the fish and the "real" pros, but in the long run the fish will also disappear because of limited action.
For now, only a few countries like Denmark, France and Italy have these laws, but what should stop other countries to do the same now they see that the pokerworld accepts it ?
My prediction is that, unless the eurosites do something radical, we in a few years will have Stars even bigger than today, Party and maybe a new Full Tilt. These sites have action, and the funds for marketing, and relatively low value VIP programmes. They can therefore afford not to lower the value as much as others. All other sites and networks will be gone or very small. Before januar 1st., the eurosites could compete on rakeback and that they were taxfree in Denmark, now that both these parameters are gone, what should be the players incentive not to move to fx. Stars with nonstop action and in some games paying less rake than on eurosites incl. rakeback ?
What could you (the pokerworld)do ? Im my opinion:
1. Combine the euronetworks Ipoker, Boss, Ongame, Entraction + ??? into one network in order to have a larger playerpool, more action, less waitingtime etc.
2. Lower the rake and lower (maybe remove) the VIP programmes. Instead of a 10+1 tour and 30% rakeback, it could be 10+0,70 with no rakeback. That way, instead of paying 20c tax you would only pay 14c, and therefore not need to lower the value for players as much as now.
3. Reconsider the whole affiliate business. I don't mind affiliates like pokernet getting part of my rake, since they pay something back to the players, a community that you are part of and actively signing up through. But I do mind affiliates getting part of my rake for life, just because I at some point clicked on a link and didn't delete cookies, not even knowing who my affiliate is. It should be possible for players to switch to the affiliate with the best offer to keep more money in the pokereconomy rather than some random affiliates pockets.
What you are also leaving out in your calculations is that you are looking at the direct returns and not considering the Winter Cup and similar activities as an investment.
My point was that recreational pokernetters(players from pokernet) are better than the average recreational player, seeing how pokernet is focused on users improving their game. So I was just wondering if the money spent on attracting recreational, but very demanding, pokernetters could be spent better elsewhere.
On the question whether you should try to attract recreational players or serious players, my point was that if most other iPoker-skins aren't concerned with that, the Réd Club players will be footing the bill by way of lower value and a close to non-changing player pool.
So if a player feels responsible for the sustainability of the poker economy they should play on a network that one way or the other offers the best incentives for the recreational players. At the moment I don't think iPoker as a whole is that network - in my mind Stárs, Pártypoker, and Ongame are well ahead in that area.
So my ultimate point is this: Réd Club offers neither a fishy population nor a lucrative VIP-program, because you don't seem to be in tune with all of the network operators as rogue as they may be. That is the problem and it won't be fixed by Danish players joining forces with you and accepting lower returns in exchange for more fish - simply because a single operator can't change the whole network.
"Réd Club offers neither a fishy population nor a lucrative VIP-program, because you don't seem to be in tune with all of the network operators as rogue as they may be. That is the problem and it won't be fixed by Danish players joining forces with you and accepting lower returns in exchange for more fish - simply because a single operator can't change the whole network. "
Spot on, og det er det der sker på de fleste af de netværk der ikke passer på pyramidens sammensætning.
Ongame indfører essence systemet, og får ikke udryddet RB alligevel, og får mega tæsk for det - Men de gør noget.
Andre netværk er i store problemer, Crypto blev ødelagt af rakeback, og det kan ikke undgå at give problemer hvis man ikke passer på. Netværkene bliver nød til at sætte grænser, og så må udbyderne tilbye aftaler der ligger helt op ad grænsen hvis de vil have high rake spillere
Sjovt nok tog Party konsekvensen af det for flere år siden og droppede netværkstanken og var i stand til at udvikle sig som stand alone i konkurrence med stars og tilt.
Ideen med netværk kan kun virke hvis de fører til at flere hygge spillere kommer til netværket, derfor bør det gøres tæt på umuligt at konkurrere på RB% og netværks-ejerne bør være meget kritiske med hvor mange licenser de udsteder til nye skins.
Jeg tror faktisk at lovgivningen i de forskellige EU-lande kan hjælpe med til dette, da skins på samme netværk ikke længere skal konkurrere så meget med hinanden, men vil kunne tillade sig at give en lavere rb% og fokusere mere på at opdyrke nye kunde grupper.
Claus skrev:
Jeg tror faktisk at lovgivningen i de forskellige EU-lande kan hjælpe med til dette, da skins på samme netværk ikke længere skal konkurrere så meget med hinanden, men vil kunne tillade sig at give en lavere rb% og fokusere mere på at opdyrke nye kunde grupper.
Jeg tror du er spot on her. Det betyder i virkeligheden når alle pros spiller
på stars, er der til sidst en større ration af hyggespillere/casino spin offs
på de små netværk. Hvilket så igen skaber en balance hvor de mere seriøse igen
vender tilbage. Det kræver selvfølgelig at de overlever en massiv nedgang i
første omgang.
Ipoker har en del at byde på, men er også dem der tilbyder de bedste cashback
aftaler (med mindre du er fra danmark) Det skal stoppe før de ser Danske Spillere
igen.
Det er ikke så meget et spørgsmål om at jage pros over til Stars, men mere at skins skal koncentrere sig om at hive nye kunder ind i butikken.
I øvrigt er Stars jo også skiftet til weighted contributed rake så der er ikke så meget fidus i at sidde og nitte den på 24 borde der længere.
Hvis jeg har læst rigtigt skifter ipoker også til dette den 1. marts så det bliver forholdsvis nemt at sammenligne værdien af rb efter dette.
@ Claus
Det var ikke min intention at promote stars. Jeg ønsker faktisk eks RCP klare sig
rigtig godt, kan kun se fordele hvis det sker.
For øvrigt tror jeg ikke der er mange pros, som ønsker en god cashback deal for
at 24 table. (de tider er over)
Synes personligt at contributed rake er det bedste der er sket i mange år.
Jeg tror de fleste seriøse pokerspillere ønsker et site som :
- Har en god playerpool
- God software
- Har en fornuftig rake politik (ligegyldig om der er cashback, eller mindre rake)
- God support
- Rene linje i forhold til promotions og bonus (vi gider ikke mere gøgl)
- troværdige (Tillid til der ikke med kort varsel bliver indført groteske nye tiltag)
- Sikkerhed
Jeg synes ikke stars føre på alle områder, hvis vi sammenligner med RCP
Suffer
jeg syntes også det vil være bedst hvis rcp klarer sig godt, du har helt ret i at der er langt de største fordele for seriøse spillere.
Det der er vigtigt for at vi som spillere får det bedst mulige produkt er at der er en sund konkurrence mellem forskellige netværk istedet for mellem skins på det samme netværk. og det er der jeg tror at den nye lovgivning vil hjælpe os til at få det bedst mulige produkt, men helt sikkert at vi som spillere kommer til at betale for noget af den skat der opkræves.
True that
Hi guys and thanks for all the commenting,
@Longchamp
I very much agree with a lot of things that you said in your email. One thing important to mention and one example used of lowering the rake by 30% have been done in the past without players even making a notice. The Swedish gov did it as they were not aloud to promote RB but players did not see it. It does produce a difference depending on rake system etc but in essence yes this would be a solution. The joining of forces yes would be an answer but I would like to see this happen before I die, there's a conflict of interests there for sure and if its not real one will be found.
@Kirk
More could be done for sure. Though I must say that the platforms are in a good position to feed in the traffic needed and stand in a good position to do so compared to some of the stand alones. Now these have a wider product offering to focus on but the support is there for a change. The network provide the more fishy liquidity on a few levels though but that is of course a subjective experience. What the true results are neither you or I can access.
No cardroom part of the network can maintain their position without providing a mix of players including the ones you find more aggressive. Its just no longer a sustainable business model with the policies there are in place.
Claus, Suffer and C_hope,
Very much agree to much of what is being said about where the importance lies for competition to be maintained. What is now offering some good returns is also draining future competition to some extent and that we all have to consider.
---------------------
Once again there are these conflicts of interests from many sides and that not only for the operators but also between the players. Important to see is the position of Pokernet and it is something to be cherished offering the joint voice that is needed for some of these changes to happen. It will though require that most support it and that some are willing to contribute a bit more than others which is always a tough one to grab. Though it seems like Pokernet have the kind of followers that genuinely cares for the future and the forum so Im confident things can happen.
Its important for me to see that the pokernetter users also function as very good ambassadors for the sport and support the attempts of finding new members. If we talk value for a moment, every new user is what brings it in the end. Ive been active in these discussions as I also wish to balance the conversations and maintain a balance between the value talk and the rest. I might feel that seeing to what there is going on in the industry, that the conversations we've had have been weighted towards the value side a bit too much at times.
Once again thank you all for the talk it was good bringing this to the table. My decision is no different now for the simple reason that I could not defend anything but a change. I though feel quite confident about this being the right thing for both RCP and our players and hope that time will prove me right.
Markus
Jeg har ikke læst hele tråden, men jeg er også top 5 raker i jeres race og jeg tror altså også jeg må sige tak for denne gang desværre.
Geezeren skrev:
Jeg har ikke læst hele tråden, men jeg er også top 5 raker i jeres race og jeg tror altså også jeg må sige tak for denne gang desværre.
Hvis der ikke er tale om en reaktion som er betonet af skuffelse så forlader
4 ud af top 5 RCP.
Ikke nok med det er trist, men synes også RCP bør overveje om ideen med at skære
i faktor tallet (17 til 13) og i samme åndedræt lave anden små dårlig promotion
var en god ide?
Endnu engang ØV! Og så skal jeg nok holde min mund
Selvfølgelig er folk skuffede, men det er trods alt folk der får omkring 50% rb hvis ellers jeg har regnet rigtigt.
Jeg tror ikke der er meget bedre deals at få i løbet af det næste halve år.
@ Claus
Du har regnet uhørt meget forkert :-)
Suffer Well skrev:
@ Claus
Du har regnet uhørt meget forkert :-)
Det tror jeg gerne:
Jeg regnede med at de rakede for 5000 om måneden og gemte deres point i 3 måneder. dette skulle give knap 30% derefter kommer racet oveni, det anslog jeg til at være ca 20% hvis det bliver ved med at se ud som det gør nu med 2 races pr måned.
Hvis dette er helt forkert må du meget gerne forklare hvordan det skal regnes ud, ellers er det jo helt håbløst at diskutere værdien af disse tilbud :-)
ETA: ok jeg kan se at race værdien nok snarere er 10-12% så de burde ende op på ca 40%
tillader mig lige at bumpe den her, da jeg gerne vil høre om mine udregninger er helt way off
Claus,
Racet er kun 20% værd for top 1-2 eller sådan noget. Bortset fra det har du ret.
Alt i alt betyder det nok at langt de fleste vil have svært ved at komme over ~35%. Sammenholdt med at man skal planlægge sit spil efter raceperioder er Réd Club ikke så attraktivt som det har været.
Det du ikke nævner, og som rammer bredere end de 10 spillere der får noget seriøst ud af racet, er at alle de spillere der ikke placerer i racet får markant ringere returns end steder med flat rb. Hvis man f.eks. raker $500 om måneden og indløser hver 3. måned får man en effektiv rb% på lidt over 18.
Kirk,
Jeg kan godt se at jeg har lavet en fejl da jeg regnede det ud og at dine tal er de rigtige, tak for det.
Med hensyn til loyalitetsprogrammet passer dine tal også fint med hvad jeg har regnet mig frem til af værdi eller mangel på samme:-)
Efter at have kigget lidt rundt på de pokernet partnere ser det i øvrigt ud til at det er nogenlunde det samme hos de fleste af dem.