Collusion - Chipdumping

Bliver nødt til lige at poste mine frustrationer her. Har i øvrigt sendt handhistories til Stars, så kan de jo kigge på det og se om der er fortilfælde.

Kæmpe chipleader på mit bord er Chronosius fra Holland. Det er en WCOOP 04 sat med 9 pladser og vi er 10 spillere tilbage (5 på hvert bord). De foregående 8-10 hænder har chipleaderen benyttet sig af sit chiplead til bare at skubbe alle hænder.

Emilia er også hollænder og første hånd er mod ham. Chippie limper i stedet for bare at skubbe og openfolder så på floppet.

Næste hånd limper han 100K og folder til et skub på 47K mere.

Næste hånd same procedure. Needless to say computeren var ved at ryge en tur ud af vinduet da han 3. gang foldede for peanuts.

Mit gæt er at han for at få Emilia til at overleve chipdumber til ham og så for at dække over det, laver to identiske spil lige efter mod andre spillere. Det gik så ud over mig.

PokerStars Hand #140385937347: Tournament #1310022722, $1.50+$0.15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVI (40000/80000) - 2015/09/05 14:10:22 CET [2015/09/05 8:10:22 ET]
Table '1310022722 11' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Papio Papio (120130 in chips)
Seat 2: Chronosius (2254322 in chips)
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (257259 in chips)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (167388 in chips)
Seat 9: kogeravnom (185596 in chips)
Papio Papio: posts the ante 8000
Chronosius: posts the ante 8000
*Emilia*1990: posts the ante 8000
JohnDuk: posts the ante 8000
kogeravnom: posts the ante 8000
Chronosius: posts small blind 40000
*Emilia*1990: posts big blind 80000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Papio Papio [6c Ks]
JohnDuk: folds
kogeravnom: folds
Papio Papio: folds
Chronosius: calls 40000
*Emilia*1990: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qc 3s 7d]
Chronosius: folds
*Emilia*1990 collected 200000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 200000 | Rake 0
Board [Qc 3s 7d]
Seat 1: Papio Papio (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chronosius (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (big blind) collected (200000)
Seat 8: JohnDuk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kogeravnom folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Hand #140385965913: Tournament #1310022722, $1.50+$0.15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVII (50000/100000) - 2015/09/05 14:11:11 CET [2015/09/05 8:11:11 ET]
Table '1310022722 11' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Papio Papio (112130 in chips)
Seat 2: Chronosius (2166322 in chips)
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (369259 in chips)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (159388 in chips)
Seat 9: kogeravnom (177596 in chips)
Papio Papio: posts the ante 10000
Chronosius: posts the ante 10000
*Emilia*1990: posts the ante 10000
JohnDuk: posts the ante 10000
kogeravnom: posts the ante 10000
*Emilia*1990: posts small blind 50000
JohnDuk: posts big blind 100000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Papio Papio [Jh 3h]
kogeravnom: folds
Papio Papio: folds
Chronosius: calls 100000
*Emilia*1990: folds
JohnDuk: raises 49388 to 149388 and is all-in
Chronosius: folds
Uncalled bet (49388) returned to JohnDuk
JohnDuk collected 300000 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 300000 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Papio Papio folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chronosius (button) folded before Flop
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: JohnDuk (big blind) collected (300000)
Seat 9: kogeravnom folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Hand #140385986817: Tournament #1310022722, $1.50+$0.15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVII (50000/100000) - 2015/09/05 14:11:47 CET [2015/09/05 8:11:47 ET]
Table '1310022722 11' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Papio Papio (102130 in chips)
Seat 2: Chronosius (2056322 in chips)
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (309259 in chips)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (349388 in chips)
Seat 9: kogeravnom (167596 in chips)
Papio Papio: posts the ante 10000
Chronosius: posts the ante 10000
*Emilia*1990: posts the ante 10000
JohnDuk: posts the ante 10000
kogeravnom: posts the ante 10000
JohnDuk: posts small blind 50000
kogeravnom: posts big blind 100000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Papio Papio [Th 7h]
Papio Papio: folds
Chronosius: calls 100000
*Emilia*1990: folds
JohnDuk: folds
kogeravnom: raises 57596 to 157596 and is all-in
Chronosius: folds
Uncalled bet (57596) returned to kogeravnom
kogeravnom collected 300000 from pot
kogeravnom: shows [Ac]
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 300000 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Papio Papio folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Chronosius folded before Flop
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: kogeravnom (big blind) collected (300000)

PokerStars Hand #140386017960: Tournament #1310022722, $1.50+$0.15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVII (50000/100000) - 2015/09/05 14:12:41 CET [2015/09/05 8:12:41 ET]
Table '1310022722 11' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Papio Papio (92130 in chips)
Seat 2: Chronosius (1946322 in chips)
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 (299259 in chips)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (289388 in chips)
Seat 9: kogeravnom (357596 in chips)
Papio Papio: posts the ante 10000
Chronosius: posts the ante 10000
*Emilia*1990: posts the ante 10000
JohnDuk: posts the ante 10000
kogeravnom: posts the ante 10000
kogeravnom: posts small blind 50000
Papio Papio: posts big blind 82130 and is all-in
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Papio Papio [5s 8h]
Chronosius: calls 100000
*Emilia*1990: folds
JohnDuk: folds
kogeravnom: folds
Uncalled bet (17870) returned to Chronosius
*** FLOP *** [4d Jd 8c]
*** TURN *** [4d Jd 8c] [7c]
*** RIVER *** [4d Jd 8c 7c] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Papio Papio: shows [5s 8h] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
Chronosius: shows [Jc 6c] (a flush, Jack high)
Chronosius collected 264260 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 264260 | Rake 0
Board [4d Jd 8c 7c 4c]
Seat 1: Papio Papio (big blind) showed [5s 8h] and lost with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 2: Chronosius showed [Jc 6c] and won (264260) with a flush, Jack high
Seat 5: *Emilia*1990 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: JohnDuk (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kogeravnom (small blind) folded before Flop

Du kan ikke gardere dig mod fisk der spiller dårligt. Siden han laver fiskemoves mod tre forskellige spillere, tror jeg du får svært ved at bevise noget med de HHs alene!

Men UL for dig

Ja er godt klar over at de sikkert ikke finder noget, da det bestemt bare kan ligne dårlige spil. Men i forhold til at han havde spillet perfekt chiplead spil op til, så var det en syg linje pludselig at tage.

Sådan noget er super frustrerende, spillede selv denne hånd i dag: http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/15773541_AFE64C97F7

Tror desværre bare det ofte handler om at folk er elendige, og det går desværre udover andre spillere til tider.

Hvis der er tale om collusion vil de helt sikker finde noget, da det i så fald med stor sikkerhed ikke vil være første gang det sker. Desuden vil der med stor sikkerhed være andre relationer mellem spillerne der linker dem sammen. Collusion er entydigt forbudt og hvis det kan dokumenteres vil spillerne blive straffet og en eller flere spillere rykket frem i præmierne. For at kunne tale om collusion skal mindst to spillere deltage aktivt i snyderiet.

Er der tale om "god-syndrome" hvor CL ophøjer sig selv til at ville afgøre hvem der skal have lov at kvalificere sig og hvem der ikke skal, er det lidt mere broget. Vil dog mene at du har en god sag, da Chronosius limp/folder og ikke bare folder direkte. Det er ikke i hans egen bedste interesse og dermed ulovligt. Der er dog som sagt lidt mere gråzone her.

Dårligt spil er i sagens natur fuldt lovligt, så hvis ikke andet kan dokumenteres lander den muligvis der.

Mit bud er umiddelbart at der IKKE er tale om collusion.

jeg synes satme godt nok det ser suspekt ud! Så ringe er der sgu ingen der kan spille. Det er da helt åbenlyst her..

Jeg er lidt med Burnz mht. at man løber ind i de vildeste fiskespil.

Ham her har dog hæderlige stats, med low bi og rigtig mange sats. Så mon ikke han kunne tænkes at vide lidt om hvad han laver?

officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/Chronosius/poker/results/D337137041CA4D329211DA1D753DF5B9.html?t=2

var så heldig at sidde til bords med ham på et bord, hvor chat var tilladt for 5 minutter siden.

Jeg skrev at han kunne forvente et opkald fra Stars. Han svarede ved at svine mig til og sige at han havde selv betalt for sine chips og derfor kunne han selv bestemme, hvem han havde lyst til at give dem til.

Desværre nåede jeg ikke at copy denne chat inden han blev flyttet.

Mr. Scrump skrev:var så heldig at sidde til bords med ham på et bord, hvor chat var tilladt for 5 minutter siden.
Jeg skrev at han kunne forvente et opkald fra Stars. Han svarede ved at svine mig til og sige at han havde selv betalt for sine chips og derfor kunne han selv bestemme, hvem han havde lyst til at give dem til.

Desværre nåede jeg ikke at copy denne chat inden han blev flyttet.

Hvis du henter HHs er chatten deri :)

Fik min revanche gange 2.

Det betaler sig heldigvis at brokke sig.

Fik en lang smøre fra stars, hvor de gennemgår hvad de kigger på omkring collusion som eksempelvis, hvor de implicerede bor og om de ofte spiller sammen. De fandt intet mistænkeligt i den sammenhæng, men medgiver at hånden ikke blev spillet på en fair måde. Chronosius har fået en skriflig advarsel.

De har derfor valgt at give mig en MTT billet til en værdi af 215 dolls.

Jeg har vedlagt deres venlige svar, hvis nogen er interesserede.

Stars continually monitors the games for collusion, and we sincerely appreciate you bringing your concerns to our attention. Following your report, we have completed an investigation into the accounts of players 'Chronosius' and '*Emilia*1990'.While the most crucial aspect of a collusion investigation is reviewing the hand evidence, it is important to contextualize the hands in question before starting the game play analysis. One of the key tasks in that regard is finding out whether or not the suspect players have a relationship. Location can be a contributing factor in trying to determine the nature of a relationship between players.While these players both live in the Netherlands, they live in different cities and there is no indication that they are acquainted with one another.Location alone, however, is not sufficient in proving a relationship or as to whether cooperative play is occurring at the tables.Aside from location, we use a variety of tools and methods to assist us in determining whether or not players are cooperating at our tables. One of the things we look at is their frequency of play together. Given how many players are playing on Stars at any given time, it would be unusual for seemingly unrelated players to frequently end up at the same table.The players in this case have played a very small number of tournaments together relative to their overall amount of play on the site. This indicates that they are not seeking one another out.That said, elements like location and play frequency are naturally not used to determine guilt or innocence by themselves. They are only used to provide us with a broader context as we take on the most essential part of any collusion investigation; a thorough review of the play itself. An advantage of online poker, as compared to live poker, is that every hand is recorded, allowing for a complete review. If any play is considered suspicious we can review the hands with all cards showing.When reviewing tournament play for possible collusion we check for the following:1) Best hand playing - where colluding players play only the better of their two hands.2) Soft playing - where colluding players refuse to play aggressively against each other. For example they may check or fold against each other where they would normally bet or raise against a stranger.3) Chip dumping/Stack balancing - where the large stack folds to the small stack to balance their chips. The idea is to improve the chances of both players finishing in money positions in a tournament.We found no evidence of any of this suspicious play. Given the lack of any relationship between their accounts, the relatively rare play together, and the lack of suspiciously played hands, there is no evidence to suggest these players are cooperating at our tables. However, when reviewing the play from this tournament, we agree with you that the play from 'Chronosius' was very out of character for this player during the last few hands of the bubble.Stars draws a fine line between making a call to spite another player and folding to spite them. Ultimately, we find that making a ‘spite’ call against another player is generally in one’s own best interest, as one is attempting to eliminate an opponent to one’s own benefit. Making a fold to spite another player or players, however, is directly assisting one player to the detriment of others. Please note that most players are not aware of this distinction, and that it would be considered a rule violation.Due to the play observed 'Chronosius' has been given a warning regarding spite folding for going easy on short stacks at your table on the bubble of the reported tournament. It does not appear that the player was doing this to assist any one player in particular; instead, it appears as though once they had their seat in the target tournament locked up, they decided to help the short stacks at their table in a way that negatively affected the other players in the tournament. Any similar transgressions from this player in the future will result in further action being taken.While we appreciate your vigilance in bringing this case to light, unfortunately we cannot determine how the event would have played out had this player not made these out of character folds on the bubble. However, we do feel that their play unfairly affected this tournament and as a gesture of good will, have credited your account with $215.00 tournament dollars that can be used to buy in to the WCOOP event in question or any other multi table tournaments or Sit and Gos on Stars.If you have any further questions regarding this issue, please let us know.I have placed notes in the players' accounts indicating your concerns and the result of this review.Once again, thank you for your report, and for choosing Stars.Regards,Chris A.Stars Game Integrity Team

God stil af Stars.
Husk nu at sætte en god stor fiske/idiot note, der folder hvor der er instant snap calls ;)